• mathemachristian[he]@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    Liberalism has always included a free market economy though? That’s what Marx was mainly against, a free economy where the means of production are owned by those with the means to purchase them on the free market. He was a “liberal” in the 19th century sense in that he was in favour of a free press and abolishment of the monarchy but he saw private ownership of land/factories etc as problematic because of the serfdom it leads to. These ideas (edit: democracy, freedom of expression etc.) however are now really mainstream and when people talk about “liberals” they mean those who are in favour of a free market economy. Free as in “i am free to buy what I want regardless of my birth” not free as in “I am entitled to basic human necessities required to live a free life even if I can’t afford them” is what most people mean when they talk about liberal ideology.

    • boredtortoise@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      And that’s the issue. The latter, of being free to even have the the possibility for economic freedom, is liberalism in it’s essence. And that’s not happening in capitalism. Under capitalism only the rich are free, so liberalism happens outside of capitalism.

      • mathemachristian[he]@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        No it isn’t. That’s just not what people mean when they talk about “liberalism”. Liberalism’s core idea is around a free (liberal) market. Just like how socialism’s core idea is around a collectivization of the means of production. You cant be a capitalist socialist and you cant be an anticapitalist liberal. It doesn’t make sense.

        • boredtortoise@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          Tying liberalism to the market is an afterthought. Its core is in social freedom.

          Only the rich are free in capitalism

          • mathemachristian[he]@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            If it is its not mine. This is what people talk about when they talk about liberalism. If you want to use the word differently you should clarify that from the start b

            • boredtortoise@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              People should read up on liberalism and stick to it instead of capitalist newspeak

              And we who know better can always correct the misuse

              • mathemachristian[he]@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                If people “read up on liberalism” they’d be reading the definition of it which includes free market capitalism, because this is what textbooks on the matter will associate with liberalism. Not your definition of it which is shared by almost no one.

                • boredtortoise@lemm.ee
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                  1 year ago

                  Even the Wikipedia article is 95% social freedom. And any critical person could see that when it mentions the additional economic liberalism is not possible under capitalism

                  Easy test: Does everyone have the possibility to be economically (or otherwise) free in capitalism? No. Therefore liberalism is impossible with capitalism