• Jarmer@slrpnk.net
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    5 months ago

    Just tried it out with my proton account. Looks great! It’s very simple, but I also like that about it. And of course being private is wonderful.

    • cygnus@lemmy.ca
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      5 months ago

      I don’t see anything different… How did you access it?

      • illi@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        From what I read it’s being released to users gradually I think?

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        5 months ago

        Today we’re announcing a new end-to-end encrypted, collaborative document editor that puts your privacy first. Docs in Proton Drive are built on the same privacy and security principles as all our services, starting with end-to-end encryption. Docs let you collaborate in real time, leave comments, add photos, and store your files securely. Best of all, it’s all private — even keystrokes and cursor movements are encrypted.

        Literally the second paragraph of the post (but I’m sure you haven’t read it, since you seem so busy replying to every comment here about how Proton is becoming Microsoft or something).

        • John Richard@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          So sending a company your private key and trusting their servers to do E2E encryption despite them being able to modify their code whenever they feel like it to capture your password without encryption and masked in obfuscated JavaScript is now considered security? Wow, people really are gullible.

          • experbia@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            I agree with your general sentiment here (that such an arrangement is not trustworthy enough for me to feel completely private) but your delivery of said sentiment is really fucking rude, dude.

            Even if it’s not secure enough for you or I to feel private, it likely exceeds the security necessary to satisfy most people’s threat models so they can not only feel private but objectively be more private than if they just used Google docs.

            incremental or opportunistic privacy improvements are better than none, a fact that has seemed to be lost in elitist privacy circles these days.

            • John Richard@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              Incremental in what way? There is an illusion of privacy. If that makes people feel good then sure, you increase your illusion of privacy.

              • nieminen@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Dude, you’ve made your point on virtually every comment on this thread. We get it, you don’t trust them. The world has given all of us every reason not to blindly trust this sort of thing. But I’ve done enough digging that I’M happy with the security, and the fact they’re not feeding my private content to the AI monster.

                Please, for the love of the flying spaghetti monster, don’t keep spamming EVERYONE with the same 3 points you’ve already made elsewhere.

          • brochard@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            I’m not sure what you’re talking about ? You’re not sending your private key to their server without first encrypting it first locally. Their servers are not doing the E2EE, your client is. The website front and apps are open source.

            Yes they could send you a compromised front if you use it via their website, that’s a compromise you accept, otherwhise you could only use their apps which are open source.

            • John Richard@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              Tell me… when you visit a website that gets updated daily, if not hourly. If it served you a different version of JavaScript than what it served someone else… would you know?

              • brochard@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                I already answered that. Yes you can’t trust a website’s content, that’s why they offer apps. It’s your choice to trust the website which is as secure as they can make it, or you simply use the apps…

                • John Richard@lemmy.world
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                  5 months ago

                  How does a WebView wrapped app offer much more security than a website? Why do they require a paid subscription to use the desktop apps?

                • John Richard@lemmy.world
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                  5 months ago

                  Last I checked the apps are mostly just wrappers around WebView, so either way you’re getting served different content randomly without ever knowing. AND, Proton specifically prevents the desktop apps from functioning on unpaid accounts. That would be like Gmail disabling IMAP for unpaid users.

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                5 months ago

                Ain’t this a website issue? Or is somebody doing it better?

                No JavaScript?

  • Nima@leminal.space
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    5 months ago

    ooooh I love this. Proton is just winning constantly these days.

    • John Richard@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      No they’re not. They can’t even finish a single solution, let alone actually make anything functional when you’re not using their proprietary servers. They’re becoming Microsoft.

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        5 months ago

        They can’t finish a single solution

        Gee, it’s almost as if that’s the whole point of an ever-evolving SaaS platform.

        • John Richard@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          A SaaS solution that claims to be private but won’t provide the backend code to prove it. You don’t find it at all suspicious that they claim releasing backend code would make it less secure? What kind of security product is not open for inspection? The same kind of “security” you get from Microsoft.

          • Gestrid@lemmy.ca
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            5 months ago

            I imagine it probably is inspected, just not by the public. They probably do it themselves.

            And they may have contracts with certain companies specializing in this sort of security that also inspect it.

            And there’s also the cybersecurity companies that test it whether they’re contracted or not. At some companies, their entire job revolves around finding bugs (especially security bugs) in other companies’ software.

            Just because it’s not on GitHub doesn’t mean it’s not a good product that hasn’t been thoroughly tested.

            • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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              5 months ago

              Surely we’re not gullible enough to accept “we inspected ourselves and determined we are secure and you should use our services”?

              • Gestrid@lemmy.ca
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                5 months ago

                That’s where the second and third paragraphs come in. Because other companies likely test it themselves, too.

                They’ll typically report security bugs privately and then, after X amount of months, publicly announce the bug. Doing it this way will, ideally, force the other company to patch the bug prior to the announcement. If not, they’ll end up with a publicly known security bug that bad actors can now exploit. The announcement will also let the public (including companies) know to update their software.

                • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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                  5 months ago

                  Yes, and those other paragraphs are the same thing other proprietary companies do. Your opening paragraph is just absurd on the face of it because “inspected” does not mean “by themselves”.

                  The second paragraph is literally speculation about something that might happen.

                  The third paragraph is about bug bounties, which every major software company does and which does not involve code inspection.

                  You just smokescreened and talked around the fact that your opening statement “it probably is inspected” is entirely unverifiable and non-credible even if true. I guess since you started that sentence with “I imagine” then it is technically true. You did imagine that.

            • John Richard@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              You realize that Microsoft code is inspected as well, even more heavily and regulated… and yet they still end up with major breaches. Security evolves through open source collaboration and inspection by experts that aren’t being paid to say you’re doing a good job.

              • sunzu@kbin.run
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                5 months ago

                You are making a lot good points… But is there any other practical solution?

                Seems this is the best a normie on budget can get

                • lastweakness@lemmy.world
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                  5 months ago

                  They’re not actually good points at all… Proton’s open sourcing of the clients is for the purpose of trust in terms of security and privacy. The backend doesn’t matter because the point is that the data is encrypted before it ever gets to the backend. The goal with Proton’s open sourcing is not the ability to make it self-hostable. Sure, a lot of concerns are valid, but this isn’t like Microsoft or Google. Nearly all of Proton is verifiably and provably secure. Well, at least as long as you trust the web clients being served are the ones whose code is publicly available. But again… You can’t verify that with any SaaS. Such a risk is even present with self-hosting tbh. But that’s another discussion.

          • micka190@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            You don’t find it at all suspicious that they claim releasing backend code would make it less secure? What kind of security product is not open for inspection?

            No, because Proton has 3rd party audits all the time and they share the results openly.

            • John Richard@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              Microsoft has third party audits all the time and say they’re secure, and then you learn of new backdoors every 6 months. Audit companies are unreliable and paid to give good feedback while doing the least work possible.

          • deezbutts@lemm.ee
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            5 months ago

            Yeah because enterprises primarily use a ton of open source security tools…

            ಠ_ಠ

            • John Richard@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              Enterprises are using a plethora of open source tools at this point. They may still utilize closed source solutions, but they definitely have quite a bit of open source solutions tied in.

        • slooopy_potatoe@lemm.ee
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          5 months ago

          Releasing unfinished products and expect users to just make do while they launch the next product can’t be the solution either.

          • micka190@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            Then it’s a good thing all of their products are fully functional and working as advertised, I guess.

              • naught101@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Which bits are not functional? I’m using their email and calendar… they aren’t completely polished, but they’re very usable.

                • slooopy_potatoe@lemm.ee
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                  5 months ago

                  Drive has no Linux client, Photos is extremely barebones and locks you basically in, as there is no export function.

                  Pass still has no proper SimpleLogin integration, no credit card support and UX wise is the browser extension pretty bad. Funny enough, years after launch you still can’t auto fill on Reddit.

                  The only thing I don’t like about Mail is that you still have to create reverse aliases through SimpleLogin. Better integration would be great.

                  Contacts still don’t sync to you local mobile contacts. Which means you either do it manually or you have to keep two sets updated.

                  Calendar is good too, I’ve heard it has no offline support though. Although I haven’t verified that.

                  Last thing I would like to see is notification support without Play Services.

                  Some of those things might be super unimportant to some, but for me it makes the use of their stuff unnecessary cumbersome. Especially if you consider that those are all Proton products and should work together well.

                  My by far biggest problem is their communication and general development speed though. Stuff like contact sync has been requested for 5(?) years now but there hasn’t been so much as a “we’re working on it”.

                  It feels to me they come out with new products all the time, like the document editor now, without addressing the little things that would make their ecosystem great.

                  Anyway, long ramble. But I appreciate that you asked for more details without insulting me.

                • MenacingPerson@lemm.ee
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                  5 months ago

                  Whatever, dude. They’re most probably not a native English speaker, and even if they are, a spelling error doesn’t make them an “idiot”. You’re being a complete dick.

      • Jin@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        All Their services are online based right? I don’t understand why using their proprietary servers is an argument here.

        • claudiop@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          So, if you want to have any sense of a service respecting you, it should be hosted on a server you can control?

          No difference at all between the server of the world’s biggest advertiser and a server by a company that opens itself for audits and is in a country whole laws require no bullshit? Are you sure those two are the same? All or nothing?

        • John Richard@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          Because their primary audience is those gullible enough to believe they somehow can’t read your messages, yet they can easily capture your private password.

          • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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            5 months ago

            It is entirely possible to keep secure data on a server that only someone else with the password can access. They don’t store your password in plaintext, they don’t test whether what you typed is the same thing they keep on their servers. If the password works to decrypt your data then your client can read the emails. If not, your client gets gibberish and knows your password was wrong. With a secure system your password should never be sent to the server at all.

            Now, that doesn’t mean it’s trustworthy. There could be holes in the security, and I certainly would feel better controlling my own server, but it’s not automatically insecure just because it’s hosted by them.

    • John Richard@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      They act just like Microsoft. Lot’s of people think Microsoft is successful. If you think Microsoft is the champion of privacy though you might be in a cult.

        • John Richard@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          Really? So Proton saying that they can’t open source the backend code to improve security isn’t something Microsoft would say as well? Proton sells statements, but they don’t back up those statements with proof.

          • nieminen@lemmy.world
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            Exposing their backend code to the public would be inviting bad actors to find loopholes in the logic. Your excuse for how they’re not secure is in fact one of their security features. No code is perfect, and you give enough people enough time to peruse through your software they’ll find a flaw to exploit. So they only provide their code to 3rd party audit companies they trust.

      • conciselyverbose@sh.itjust.works
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        5 months ago

        I’ll tell you what. When proton ships a product that takes a screenshot of my desktop every 5 seconds and stores it in an unsecured DB any user on my computer can access, we’ll call them even.

        • John Richard@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          I’ll tell you what. If you can prove to me by pointing to the specific source code that would prevent Proton from capturing your private key password when you login or decrypt using their standard clients then I’ll join the Proton cult.

          • nomous@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            prove to me by pointing to the specific source code that would prevent Proton from your private key password

            You want them to point to code (that’s not publicly available) that prevents Proton from capturing credentials?

            What a dumb hoop to tell someone to jump through. Do you expect someone to actually post a block of code? Would you even be able to read it?

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                Yes I can read it. You think I’m an f’ing idiot?

                I mean, you’re certainly not providing much proof that you have any measurable software skills that enables you to do the proper evaluation even if you received the code from proton. Why should anyone believe this unsubstantiated claim from you?

                Edit: for the record, I’m don’t give a shit and I’m just yanking your chain here.

                • John Richard@lemmy.world
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                  5 months ago

                  I’m a black belt in TypeScript, JavaScript, Go, Rust, C, C++, Python & can read and write assembly with my eyes closed, okay?😉

          • ArchRecord@lemm.ee
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            5 months ago

            This simply isn’t really possible.

            Even if they published open-source code for their backend, it wouldn’t prove that it’s actually what their systems are running.

            And when you are storing your data on their servers, and decrypting it by sending over your password, there’s no way you can actually truly prevent them from accessing your data, if they were to modify how their systems function overall. (this is true for every company)

            Even if they were using zero-knowledge proofs to verify and prove to you the computation done on the server matched what would be expected from published open-source code, then either their very own systems (and by extension, their administrators), or a different company’s proprietary TPM module, would be the root of trust for those ZK proofs, and would still have the same underlying trust assumptions of at least 1 company having the ability to potentially steal your information.

            If you want to rail against Proton for this, you have to be against every single cloud-based instance of code that hosts encrypted data, by any company, for any user.

            Saying Proton acts just like Microsoft is a laughable comparison to make in order to justify claiming a lack of privacy or security on Proton’s part.

            Why? Is it because they’re both companies that offer online services? Guess what, loads of companies do that. But you know what Proton doesn’t do? Give away the contents of people’s files, like Microsoft states they do in their own transparency reports, that they conveniently stopped publishing in 2022. Microsoft handed over the content (not just IP, email, etc, but actual docs, communications, stored files, etc) of thousands of people’s accounts to law enforcement. Proton hasn’t given out content once.

            And this doesn’t even consider the fact that Proton’s business model is privacy. For Microsoft, their users will keep using their services regardless of their privacy, but for Proton, if it comes out that their services are no longer private, nobody will use them anymore, because nobody who got them for privacy would need them at that point.

          • conciselyverbose@sh.itjust.works
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            Such source code isn’t possible with the general audience service they offer, even if being open source were a requirement for credibility in any way.

            You’re comparing them to a company with a long history of actively hostile behavior despite the fact that there’s never been a single hint of anything resembling hostile behavior from them, they operate from a country with meaningful privacy protections and only surrender data when compelled by their own courts (who only do so in circumstances that actually warrant it), and haven’t actually given up information that’s useful when required to because they don’t have it.

      • Muscar@discuss.online
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        5 months ago

        I’d almost believe you were paid to hate on proton, but you’d get fired for how fucking dumb your arguments are.

  • AwesomeLowlander@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    The only open source mentioned in the post is their encryption. Not the document editing software. OP please remove your change to the article title, it’s extremely misleading.

  • Fisch@discuss.tchncs.de
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    5 months ago

    I like how there seems to be more and more alternatives to MS Office, even from big companies like Google. Best case scenario, this could lead to companies actually starting to use an open format, like ODF, so that all these different office applications can be used without causing issues in the file and that would pave the way for open source alternatives, like LibreOffice or OnlyOffice, to become viable alternatives for a lot more people and companies. Do Google Docs and Proton Drive use/support ODF? I’m pretty sure MS Office supports it.

    • tourist@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      I wish msoffice would just die a miserable death

      Word is a pain in the ass. Resize a table column by 1px and the rest of the document gets absolutely fucked

      Excel suffers from similarly frustrating UI issues, but my main problem with it is that it’s being used for things that it was never intended to be used for. On the extreme side, a company will shove all their HR info into one xlsx file and then someone will accidentally, somehow unrecoverably, delete it

      More commonly, I’ve had to use it as a progress tracking/ticketing tool. An entire team adding rows, deleting rows, accidentally clearing formulas, highlighting random fucking cells, resizing columns etc. all at the same time. It’s just hell.

        • gibmiser@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          You use what ya got, and you don’t buy database software or hire a database guy until you know you need one

          • Takumidesh@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            But access comes with office, so if you have excel you have at least a software that is intended to be used as a DB (efficacy aside)

            • micka190@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              Let’s be real, using Excel as a makeshift database is probably still better than actually using Access lol

              • Fisch@discuss.tchncs.de
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                5 months ago

                When I started studying IT at a Berufskolleg (German word, literal transaltion would be something like job college or job school), we started learning about databases by using Access. We were all so happy when we were done with that and just used SQL. I fucking hate Access.

              • sevan@lemmy.ca
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                The only use case I can see for Access is when you absolutely must have a database and your company will not provide you a real database solution. I have experience with both, but haven’t touched Access in years (and hope to never do so again). To be fair, I also regularly use Excel for things that I should probably be using Word for because it is easier to get formatting right in Excel.

          • RecluseRamble@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            5 months ago

            Probably true for most companies but I worked at one that had plenty of DB servers and developers, even developed their own database tech. Still, Excelitis as we called it was rampant.

        • ruse8145@lemmy.sdf.org
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          5 months ago

          It can also link nicely over odbc to full databases which are represented a nice tables…with links between sheets…waiiit a second.

      • mutant_zz@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Sadly, the lock-in is pretty extreme… as is user inertia. Office 365 has made the problem worse as well, even if you have something like OnlyOffice that does a good job of compatibility with Office, it can’t sync with OneDrive.

        If you collaborate with non-technical people, they will expect you to work in Office formats, and won’t even entertain discussion of any alternative.

        • ruse8145@lemmy.sdf.org
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          Wait who are the technical people you work with who are using things besides Excel?? Or by technical people do you specifically mean computer science people? Cause you get mech, civil, or electrical engineers in a room and I think I would have a heart attack if their designs were not all in Excel or word (+altium, solidkindaworks, etc)

      • ForgotAboutDre@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        It’s criminal that Microsoft has such a monopoly on word processing, they can’t even render text properly. It’s not an issue in Mac or Linux, but it is in all windows applications that aren’t using a chromium base.

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          5 months ago

          Employer: Print out this .doc and bring it to work. Me, with a Mac: alright, here you go. Employer: why did you print it like this? Me: that’s what you sent me.

          • ruse8145@lemmy.sdf.org
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            Uses compute platform that’s spent (all of personal computer history) trying to exclude any outsiders from working with them, a design intention of Steve Jobs from day one leading to significant waste and suffering for the past 50 years.

            Sad that Microsoft doesn’t care

            At least Linux has a leg to stand on. The culture can be exhausting but is generally in the right.

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              5 months ago

              Life sure is terrible when people enjoy things you don’t, isn’t it?

              • ruse8145@lemmy.sdf.org
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                5 months ago

                No idea what your point is. Are you arguing the history of apple as a morally depraved company?

                • Eggyhead@kbin.run
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                  5 months ago

                  I was just talking about dealing with .doc files, but you are free interpret that however you want, buddy.

      • bzah@discuss.tchncs.de
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        5 months ago

        Where I was working Excel was used for the specification of scientific data. You get stuff like thousands of rows in several sheets themselves in multiple files that inherit from one another and everything is edited by hand… And I maintained a tool that combined them to create binary files from this mess. Lot of fun.

      • Fisch@discuss.tchncs.de
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        5 months ago

        I feel you on that first part, I always use Markdown nowadays when I don’t have to use Word (or LibreOffice Writer in my case), I even use Marp to make presentations with Markdown. Since there’s no dragging stuff around and eyeballing if it’s actually coherent, it’s much quicker, the layout is always perfect and changing the layout doesn’t fuck up the entire slide/document.

      • ruse8145@lemmy.sdf.org
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        5 months ago

        It…was intended for those things. Excel is modern business’ multi-tool. You’re not going to excise it until there is a solution for the HR person to do basic bulk data processing, basic Excel programming without having to acknowledge they are doing programming, etc.

        The other path is better spreadsheet software, but let’s be honest most of the others are poor clones. Gsheets are nearly useless, only office is solid but…well, it’s just Excel but free. Open office is Excel millennium edition and libre while better than open, and has a few nice quality of life improvements, it’s still Excel.

  • BlueMagma@sh.itjust.works
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    5 months ago

    Open source ? Does that mean I can host my own ? Would it be compatible with other self hosted instance ?

    EDIT: the only source code I found hasn’t been maintained for 3 years.

  • 👍Maximum Derek👍@discuss.tchncs.de
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    5 months ago

    When I was degoogling a couple years ago I had a heck of a time choosing between protonmail and fastmail.

    I went with the fastmail and, while I have no complaints, I’m starting to glance at greener grass.