One is a regular person taking out a person of huge authority, balancing power.
The other is the biggest authority taking out a smaller one to consolidate power.
Please show your work. What is the proof that it was done to consolidate power?
This isn’t to mention that your use of the word authority is strange. How exactly do you determine who has more authority between a US house representative vs. a CEO?
Consolidate ? he’s the leader of a 90 million strong party and been at the reins for more than 14 years lmao. I stg libs’ understanding of politics can be directly mapped to Harry Potter.
Greed is never satisfied?
You think I’m a lib?
Hahahahaha
If you’re not a Marxist, you’re a lib
All that says is that you’re a Marxist (which I’m not saying is a bad thing).
Bet, it’s just been like a hundred comments of the same three talking points from liberals in .world. The reason it’s not just bad because it’s a “bigger authority” is because of the class character of the state, as well as the subject of the oppression. Lenin dedicated an entire book to the subject, State and Revolution. As to how it applies to China and why popular support among a revolutionary government despite capital and billionaires being allowed to exist, one of the best pieces I’ve ever read on the subject is this https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/
It’s good that there’s a bigger authority than capital, the party rules through popular consent, and they chose Xi Jinping as well as the people that do the actual legwork of the anti corruption drive to be the executors of that will. If the US had a popular mandate that prevented corporate abuses, Luigi Mangione wouldn’t have needed to be incarcerated, he would have already gotten his surgery.
He’s going around calling everyone that especially when it doesn’t fit because he just learned it’s an insult.
One isn’t a corrupt dictator killing or imprisoning anyone who complains about him. If you think the little guy isn’t getting hurt in China I want the drugs you’re on.
There’s 1.4 billion Chinese citizens. Do y’all think this is Star Wars and you can just jail tens of millions with nobody noticing or complaining? Terminally unserious.
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Yeah, because unlike Israel, Neon 🇮🇱, China has not and is not ethnically cleansing anyone.
Israeli flag in name
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Do you have any source on the PRC killing or imprisoning anyone who complains about it? Moreover, what do you think about 95%+ Chinese citizens supporting the CPC? If we ask Harvard themselves about the results of their study, they say “We find that first, since the start of the survey in 2003, Chinese citizen satisfaction with government has increased virtually across the board. From the impact of broad national policies to the conduct of local town officials, Chinese citizens rate the government as more capable and effective than ever before. Interestingly, more marginalized groups in poorer, inland regions are actually comparatively more likely to report increases in satisfaction. Second, the attitudes of Chinese citizens appear to respond (both positively and negatively) to real changes in their material well-being, which suggests that support could be undermined by the twin challenges of declining economic growth and a deteriorating natural environment.” This directly goes against claims of “social credit” preventing this, moreover the “Orwellian Social Credit System” hinted at doesn’t even exist, at least not in the manner most think it does. Even more overtly, they state "Although state censorship and propaganda are widespread, our survey reveals that citizen perceptions of governmental performance respond most to real, measurable changes in individuals’ material well-being."
Wow this one really brought out the votes, both kinds 😂
Putting the agitation in agitprop
great thread OP
It really hit the right balance, it prompted discussion in what is (hopefully) a productive manner by highlighting mass support for violence against billionaires compared to the actions of AES states. Hopefully people start reading Marx after this.
Working class rebel vs Elite class looking for more control
What the heck is an “elite class?” Where did Marx talk about it?
Believe it or not, things can exist independently of Marx having described them.
When everyone is using Class in a specific manner, the addition of a “class” that doesn’t actually exist just for a quip is really odd. You have to make the argument that it even exists in the first place first.
So which non-Marxist political economy or sociology defines this elite class? Usually class politics is attributed to Marx
This is your brain on a lack of class analysis
Please show your work. What is the proof that it was done for more control?
Are you asking for proof of Occupied China being a planned economy or that the party controls it?
The comment I replied to says:
Working class rebel vs Elite class looking for more control
Notice the part highlighted in bold. I am asking for proof of this. In other words, proof that the Chinese government executed CEOs only because they sought “more control”. Surely we are not expected to blindly trust this claim, right?
Surely we are not expected to blindly trust this claim
Why not? They did when the CIA told it [to the journalists that repeated it] to them.
So it’s planned economy that you’re disputing
I really can’t think of any proof that you would believe if you’re disputing that
So it’s planned economy that you’re disputing
No.
My question is very clear, why can’t you address it without pretending I asked something else?
Again, you made the claim that CEO executions were made for the reason of seeking more control. Please provide proof that they were done for this reason and not any other reason. I have not asked for planned economy proof or anything else.
If your next comment does not answer my question, then you are being intentionally misleading
If it’s a planned economy then the government controls it
You’re just saying the same thing
How do you twist yourself up in knots to not even get in the general vicinity of an evidence-based position and not wonder "damn, do I really not know shit about the stuff I’m so loud about "?
This is good agitation. Im not a blanket supporter but its been a good thread with a lot of decent links worthy of critical support. Lemmy world needed this lmao
When you see them seethe through the entire script and react to articles like you showed a cross to nosferatu you know they’re learning without their consent
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You’re literally in a .ml com.
Official gweilo post
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Ok officer
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Many of the chronically online social media poster (read: western professional class) are closer to the CEO than they are to any other group. The temporarily embarrassed millionaires as they’re also known.
Statistically a not insignificant number of them are millionaires by net worth. Especially when we consider demographics where it’s mainly tech workers. But of course that doesn’t count because of some indeterminate line between evil CEO and average Joe who worked hard.
The cognitive dissonance is that they’re all part of the same system. Climbing the same ladder. In any other context these people are bragging about being executive of some random startup or whatever.
They’re not, they just think they are. They’re every bit as oppressed and the sharing of the imperial spoils hasn’t been a thing since at least the fall of the USSR, once there was literally no alternative. Now there is an alternative but the population has been so thoroughly propagandized that you mention any enemy of the State Dept and they start frothing at the mouth.
Non-westerners’ view on what life is like here always amaze me. Then they complain they’re not rich besides earning “a lot”, because they’re fed the propaganda that we’re all dirty imperialists exploiting them. No, most of us are not millionaires. Most of us can’t even buy a place to live without enslaving ourselves for half our life to bankers. But OK buddy
Which is why the rest of us is confused about why most of y’all so rabidly do the propaganda work for your oppressors. Y’all consistently get to the line of class consciousness and then do a 180 and sprint in the opposite direction whenever it concerns foreigners.
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I am a westerner. No other comment. You’ve already made up your mind. And I can’t be assed to talk over what ever incronguencies you have of mindset.
we’re all dirty imperialists exploiting them
Okay just one comment I’ll have to withold else I’ll probably get banned for insulting your intelligence
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The original was funny to me because people thought the second guy was fine when the reality would be if a woman is calling human resources there’s probably something there. It’s a joke told from the perspective of someone who’s unable to see anything wrong and is only representing their side of the story. So I thought this was a riff on that idea, and viewed in that light this version is funny too.
Oppressing the owners of capital is good, actually. If you don’t do it you end up like the US where everyone has to pay them for everything all the time and the police is only there to prevent you from doing anything about it.
Chinese people don’t have to go out and get jailed for doming a mass murdering CEO out of desperation, the government gladly prosecutes and makes an example of them.
Except Xi Jinping is not oppressing owners of capital. China has lots of oligarchs that in some ways have a tighter grip on society than their western counterparts. He’s oppressing people that are “inconvenient” to him.
These are all vibes, can you explain exactly how and why you believe Xi is simply “oppressing those invonvenient” to him?
He’s oppressing people that are “inconvenient” to him.
All vibes, no thoughts.
Did you get that info from the same dudes insisting that killing Brian Thompson was, like, not okay guys? Businessmen in China are scared shitless of the party, and so should they, the party has 87 million members and a 90+ approval rating.
There’s no CEO in china wielding one tenth of the influence that weird nazi Elon Musk has, or Bill Gates’ vaccine privatizing ass.
Elon Musk openly daydreams about being Ma Huateng. What does that tell you?
Elon Musk is an idiot.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_billionaires
You will note that china has 406 billionaires.
So way fewer billionaires per capita with a way smaller fortune than the ones in the US, despite having a bigger economy? Oh no, this is a disaster.
Oh ok, i guess its ok for billionaires to exist as long as they simp for your dictator of choice.
Getting a liberal to read is borderline impossible.
China ranks second in the world in number of millionaires as well as number of billionaires.
China ranks second in the world in human population, too.
They also have more millionaires per capita than Countries like Russia, but I focused on total number because a country that actually oppressed capital owners wouldn’t have any billionaires.
China’s top 1% income share is lower than US and Russia. Top 10% income share is also lower in China.
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Quantity of bourgeoisie is not an indication of who runs the country or which is primary, public or private property
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China has the second biggest population in the world, period.
The PRC saw what happened when you cracked down too hard on wealth inequality too early in the USSR, there was significant brain drain and people took what they could elsewhere. This eventually led to decreased growth and contributed to collapse. The PRC instead allows billionaires (so long as they don’t commit crimes), and as a consequnce they now have the largest economy by PPP and second largest by GDP. It’s a “boiling the frog” approach.
And capitalists have no choice but to partake now, even western companies are tripping over themselves to set up shop in China because that’s the biggest market now that the leeches have bled the US population almost dry and destroyed their supply chains. They literally can’t compete, unless they invest and build in China.
They’re selling them the rope, and that’s why the US has gotten progressively more rabid against the CPC.
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Per capita or total?
By this logic, a monarchy that keeps the aristocracy in line is better than the US democracy. A benevolent dictator is still a dictator.
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In what manner is Xi a dictator? The fact that he has been reelected democratically and hasn’t lost to someone else?
I’m not sure if it’s intentional, but you’re missing the point
I don’t believe you have a point. Your point rests on the PRC being a dictatorship, which it isn’t.
The Communist Party is based in the Leninist principle of “democratic centralism”. This means “debate within the party, unity in action”. It is meant to make the party more powerful by allowing dissent and debates within the party, but when it comes to taking action, all members are expected to follow the consensus even if they disagreed with it.
Since China’s Congress is primarily members of the Communist Party, this means that the decision of the president ultimately originates in the Communist Party itself. After they reach a consensus, the whole party will vote for that consensus in the Congress. While there technically are smaller parties in China’s Congress, they act more as advisors, since it is not practically possible for them to overturn the vote, since the CPC always votes in unity.
Formally, China’s president is elected by the Congress. But the decision of who to elect largely comes back to the CPC itself before they come to a consensus. So the final decision largely originates in the Politburo and the Central Committee.
The president in China is harder to shift on a dime than like in the US. The president is not elected by a nation-wide vote but by the Congress itself. To change who the Congress elects, you have to change the opinions of the largest party in that Congress, you have to change the opinions of the CPC
Xi is not technically a dictator in the same way that Putin is not technically a dictator. He is in control of a governing body that could replace him on paper, but never will. And he has dictatorial powers without real checks/balances. And, to return to my original point, it may appear that this system is fine if it produces a good result, but the power of the government should come from the will of the people.
You spent several paragraphs correctly outlining why Xi has power, while being subject to recall and democratic checks. The CPC has 96 million members, he isn’t leader of a cabal but of the party of the people, and as a consequence the CPC has over 95% approval rates in peacetime. This is unheard of outside of wartime in the west, you need to understand what you are talking about here.
I recommend Xi’s writing on democracy from 2021, Democracy is not an Ornament.
Baby level understanding of how China’s peoples democracy works, with not a single source.
Putin is “technically not a dictator” in the same way that Biden is “technically not a dictator”: by way of the capitalist class abiding his status as ostensible head of state.
The problem with a benevolent dictator is that they die eventually, and are replaced by a non-benevolent dictator, or a civil war, or both. Unfortunately it looks like the US democracy might have the same outcome.
Yeah, but they get jailed for literally anything else lol
What do you mean?
Brother the US has ONE FIFTH of the world’s inmates (in dire conditions that provide slave labor) despite having less than 5% of the world population.
If y’all didn’t thoughtlessly and immediately internalize whatever outlandish shit your media tells you about the yellow peril you’d be envious of their living standards and, honestly? Their political freedom too.
That’s the point.
Cool for you that America does bad things. I really am confused about that argument because I never mentioned america and has nothing to do that china literally puts Gay people under pressure with medicine to cure them or put Islamic people into jail for being islamic and not wanting to convert. There are many stupid reaosons. But I never said America is better or smth. Thats what I interpret from your message/argument. Why do you think that the earth consists of only America? Thats the last country I wanna think of.
Xinjiang is almost half muslim and they have like 200 mosques there, you can go visit them 🤡 there was a push for deradicalization when the CIA did as CIA does and started sponsoring terror attacks, and China, instead of responding with bombings, provided education and vocational training. The result has been zero terrorist attacks since 2019, compared to 37 attacks in 2014 alone. I mention America because that’s unequivocally the only source of this nonsense, although they launder the State Department propaganda through VoC, ASPI (the only “primary sources” ever cited, such as they are) and several other proxy organizations with funding provided by NED and the military industrial complex. The Arab League and the United Nations have sent delegations to examine the claims and found them unsustained, the Arab League congratulated China as a role model in the fight against terrorism.
The UN delegation, by the way, was halted by America several times because they knew they wouldn’t find jack shit, and they didn’t think people would be stupid enough to keep saying it once it had been proven false.
Real convenient that you don’t want to think of America tho, but we’re talking about an American CEO that got killed by an American and arrested by American cops for doing a desperate act of self defense.
America sucks and I like what the guy did.
Still in such topics I didnt feel like it was related to America as China was the topic.
Interesting how fucked up the situation is with CIA sponsoring it. In a world of Propaganda I am afraid to believe or not believe such facts. I dont even know if sources would help, as any article positive or negative could tell lies. I will partly believe this with questions and curiousity. I know how America is full of propaganda and money laundring. But this doesnt mean that other sources are not similar.
Whatever, I like to have no opinions
Source?
Here a lot of articles.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=china+jails+islamic+people&t=fpas&ia=web
I had my source from a Video a long time ago where even Chinese Muslims were intervied about this in what they need to flee from. The topic also had Gay people needing to go through therapy because Gayness is a sickmess says china… how stupid
But I assume its pointless to share as you see probably everything as Propaganda cuz China is glory or smth. Idk. You can explain your viewpoint if you want. It can be neutral too
You’ve owned the tankies by posting a search link that brings up articles from US and anglophone state media sources, like CNN, BBC.
The majority of the world disagrees with them, most notably the Muslim world, who had decades of lies from those sources defending the US bombing of their countries.
Damn, yeah. I should start to create a chart of how truthful articles are and automatically remove them from search.
I can see how lost the articles are sometimes, following money.
Working class executing CEOs that work against them
Ruling class executing CEOs who don’t work for them
Slight difference
That’s an anti-Marxist view of class. What is the “ruling class” you speak of in the PRC? Government isn’t class, but an extension of the class in power, so which class is in power?
It’s the latter part of “no god’s no masters”
I’m sorry if I’ve insulted Marxist purity
You can be an Anarchist if you want to, but you should at least do so using actual analysis and not sloganeering.
No toilet paper no homework
Oh no, you depicted me as a nerd! My point is ruined 😭
My point is you had no point. You responded to a FANTASTIC explanation of the difference by splitting hairs on what by your definition qualifies as a class.
Instead of addressing the argument, you just threw a semantics argument, which I maintain is the terminally online version of pocket sand.
I addressed it entirely. The Proletariat executing Billionaires who go against the proletariat is perfectly in line with Marx and his concept of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. The CPC has 96 million members, it isn’t a distinct class, it represents the will of the people and as such has a higher than 95% approval rate. Their implication is that the CPC is some third ruling class, and not the instrument of proletarian supremacy, which is why I corrected it.
Your response doesn’t address any of how I analyzed their argument, by insisting I am “splitting hairs” by pointing out how the class dynamics of a bourgeois state and a proletarian state are fundamentally different, and that difference is that the proletarian state represents the real will of the people while the bourgeois state does not.
This is where I think the conversations always break down on ml.
You fervently assert things like a 95% approval rating while selectively ignoring the “social credit” system that punishes people who don’t approve. You use large party employment to justify some kind of perfect overlap between the proletariat and the government. Where do you think the real decision making is done? Do you think it isn’t a tiny fraction of party elite? How would you view these things through the lens of manufactured consent?
I don’t think it’s any better in a western capitalist system, but I’m not going to deceive myself into thinking that china is running fundamentally differently than any western oligarchy.
The “social credit system” was made to hold financial and privately-run institutions to account, and prevent companies and organizations from committing fraud and polluting the environment. Even US capitalist mouthpieces like foreign policy agree with this.
The government does assign universal social credit codes to companies and organizations, which they use as an ID number for registration, tax payments, and other activities, while all individuals have a national ID number. The existing social credit blacklists use these numbers, as do almost all activities in China. But these codes are not scores or rankings. Enterprises and professionals in various sectors may be graded or ranked, sometimes by industry associations, for specific regulatory purposes like restaurant sanitation. However, the social credit system does not itself produce scores, grades, or assessments of “good” or “bad” social credit. Instead, individuals or companies are blacklisted for specific, relatively serious offenses like fraud and excessive pollution that would generally be offenses anywhere. To be sure, China does regulate speech, association, and other civil rights in ways that many disagree with, and the use of the social credit system to further curtail such rights deserves monitoring.
These are basic things the US used to do in the 1950s, but now stopped any pretense of doing. Any regulation against business is considered “authoritarian” now.
Meanwhile in the US, having a bad credit score can prevent you from buying a car, house, or even renting an apartment.
China uses these scores to hold financial institutions to account, while the US uses scores to prevent ordinary citizens from getting housing. One country is a dictatorship of the proletariat, the other a dictatorship of capital.
I’m not going to deceive myself into thinking that china is running fundamentally differently than any western oligarchy.
You’re choosing to continue deceiving yourself that China is not fundamentally different from any western oligarchy, got it.
It’s more that liberals like yourself directly ignoring facts and statistics while blindly repeating vague and unsourced claims of “China Bad,” because it lets you remain comfortable in your pre-existing worldview. Communists do not have such luxury, which is why they seemingly always have endless sources on hand. In your comment here, as an example, you discredit the CPC’s approval with no source. However, if we ask Harvard themselves about the results of their study, they say “We find that first, since the start of the survey in 2003, Chinese citizen satisfaction with government has increased virtually across the board. From the impact of broad national policies to the conduct of local town officials, Chinese citizens rate the government as more capable and effective than ever before. Interestingly, more marginalized groups in poorer, inland regions are actually comparatively more likely to report increases in satisfaction. Second, the attitudes of Chinese citizens appear to respond (both positively and negatively) to real changes in their material well-being, which suggests that support could be undermined by the twin challenges of declining economic growth and a deteriorating natural environment.” This directly goes against your claims of “social credit” preventing this, moreover the “Orwellian Social Credit System” you hint at doesn’t even exist, at least not in the manner you imply it does.
You are directly decieving yourself because you license yourself to. If you actually looked at real sources and didn’t reject them reflexively, instead of accepting bourgeois media at face value, you’d sit much closer to where I do. You should read False Witnesses and Masses, Elites, and Rebels: The Theory of “Brainwashing.” Both are excellent examples of why people don’t change their minds when seeing indisputable evidence, they willingly go along with narratives that they find more comfortable. It explains the outright anger liberals express when anticommunism is debunked. That doesn’t mean Communists don’t do the same thing, but as we live in a liberal dominated west (most likely, assuming demographics) this happens to a much lesser extent because liberalism is that which supplies these “licenses” to go along, while Communism requires hard work to begin to accept. This explains the mountains of sources Communists keep on hand, and the lack thereof from liberals who argue from happenstance and vibes.
You responded to a FANTASTIC explanation of the difference by splitting hairs on what by your definition qualifies as a class.
A fantastic explanation? It literally isn’t an explanation, it’s a comparison of two statements. Which is fine, and so is the critique of those statements to examine their perceived contradictions.
From the perspective of the CPC and Marxist-Leninist theory, their ruling party represents the working class, just like our ruling parties represent the owner class of CEOs. [wikipedia page: DotP] Obviously that’s a contested claim which not even all Marxists will agree with, but it’s far from splitting hairs. It’s the basic foundation of the comparison, the implicit claim that one is a working class act and the other is not.
This is the most concise rebuttal and I think you’ve highlighted well where the root of the perceived discord lies.
If one accepts that the CPC represents the working class, then the critique of the unfair comparison via the meme would be viewed as legitimate.
If one contests the original assertion, then it does not. To them, Xi memeing a CEO would look to them more like Musk offing Altman.
There is never a case of a working class party conquering political power, that hasn’t been demonized by western anti-communist society.
When the US and its media tells you that the leaders China or Cuba or Vietnam are just “dictators”, why do you believe them?
Absolutely. Power is the difference. Vertical power structures all look the same. Call it communism, but those at the bottom are still ruled by those at the top. Instead give me some of that horizontal, bottom up power. No gods, no masters.
One is authoritarian in nature, the other is protestant in nature. These are not the same thing
The authorization of CEO execution sounds like a good thing. People are clearly singing for it, so why not make it policy?
bc when the gubmint do thing it makes it communist and that’s literally like that book with the animals at the farm
What are you talking about?
Luigi’s alleged actions were an attempt at drawing attention to social issues. Xi Jinping’s actions on the other hand are attempts at violently suppressing opposition ergo authoritarianism.
Can you provide any support for your argument that the PRC executes billionaires because of opposition, and not, say, massive corruption? Because you again seem to be making up a narrative to suit your present biases without looking at any sources.
The opposition in China is the capitalist class, that gets capital punishment if they get out of line. China executes billionaire tycoon convicted of being ‘ruthless underworld kingpin’
That’s a fun way of saying the government consumes you if you commit wrongthink. That’s authoritarian lol.
If only Adolf Eichmann had committed his atrocities 10 years later or so, all he had to do was say “the authoritarians are canceling me for wrongthink, literally 1984” and you liberals would have ate it the fuck up
so according to your own definition, luigi killed that CEO for committing wrongthink and is authoritarian.
like davel just showed you, they’re doing the exact same thing, but it’s only bad to you when it’s law and not adventurism. anarchists or whatever you want to call yourself really are just vibes-based and it’s so fucking annoying and reductive. you will never accomplish anything because you instinctively oppose progress as “authoritarian” when it’s actually made. you just want to feel like a rebel no matter what kind of system you’re living in.
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Oh, so like Boeing whistleblowers?
I heard they all accidentally fell out of windows.
Three times
